Member of the HQCJU Anastasiia Zaritska: “Competition to the High Anti-Corruption Court will definitely be public”
How will the Public Council of International Experts be formed, which should help to select the judges of the anti-corruption court? When will the contest begin and how long will it take? How does the process of clearing the judiciary to take place, and why are judges indignant at the qualification evaluation? Anastasiia Zaritska, a member of the High Qualification Commission of Judges of Ukraine, answered these and many other questions in an interview with Censor.NET.
MUCH WILL DEPEND ON THE TIME OF SPECIAL CHECKING OF CANDIDATES CONDUCTED BY UP TO 20 STATE BODIES
- When will the competition for judges of the anti-corruption court begin? What are its specifications? Will it differ from the competition to the Supreme Court?
- The competition can be announced in September. So far, this issue is still to be decided. The competition to the anti-corruption court will definitely be public so that to give the society the possibility to evaluate candidates as well. Participants of the competition must go through the qualification evaluation, which includes the exam (tests and practical tasks), psychological testing and interviews with the psychologist, as well as an interview on the results of the dossier examination with the members of the HQCJ. A special feature of the procedure is that the team of international experts will be involved in the process of the evaluation. The Commission already has a considerable experience in conducting a competition to the Supreme Court. The Commission has a testing database, which needs to be finalized and improved, taking into account the specificity of this court. There are also some practical tasks. The Commission knows how to organize the process of qualification evaluation, so we are ready for this process.
- Are there any plans to limit the competition in time?
- According to the law, the High Anti-Сorruption Court should be formed within a year from the day of its entry into force that is until the summer of 2019. You can make predictions about its speedy conduct, but you can analyze the length of the contest to the Supreme Court to understand the complexity of procedures. The past contest lasted 9 months, given that the commission was solely involved into its conduct. Now, at the same time, we carry out the selection of judges, the qualification evaluation of the entire judiciary, the competition to the High Court on Intellectual Property, to be followed by the second call to the Supreme Court and the competition to the High Anti-Corruption Court. One should take this into account before making predictions about the duration of the last competition. The process of conducting a competition for future judges of this court may be delayed due to the formation of the Public Council of international experts. Much will depend on the duration of the special verification of candidates conducted by up to 20 public authorities.
- Who will form the Public Council of International Experts? What will be the difference between the HQСJU and such a council during the work with the Public Council of Integrity?
- The Competition for the positions of anti-corruption judges will be conducted by the HQCJ, however, it won’t be the Public Council for Integrity to carry out candidates’ compliance with the criteria of integrity and professional ethics, but a specially created Public Council of International Experts. This is an auxiliary body formed for a term of six years by the High Qualification Commission of Judges of Ukraine to assist it in preparing decisions on appointment to the positions of judges of the High Anti-Сorruption Court.
The Public Council of International Experts will perform its mandate consisting of six members, appointed exclusively on the basis of proposals from international organizations with which Ukraine cooperates in the area of prevention and counteraction to corruption in accordance with international treaties.
- Since December 15, the new Supreme Court has begun its work. And where are now the judges who previously worked in the high specialized courts?
- According to the law, without the competition, judges can be transferred to the court of the same or lower levels. Since the same level of courts is not available, so the transfer is only possible to the courts of the lower level. This question is very painful because the best option for them is a vacancy in the courts of appeals. However, such an option may be available in different regions of the country, and not only in Kyiv, where they lived and worked for many years.
It is very difficult for judges to perceive that the region may change, but we are complying with the law when offering options to them and we take the appropriate decision.
- Do you offer vacancies? Or do you indicate just one option, already chosen by the Commission?
- One may say that we name it right away. Although the liquidation procedures for high specialized courts have not been completed, it is already obvious that all those who worked there should find new working places.
Not everyone goes to the courts of appeal, someone goes to vacancies in the first instance courts. Some said that there was no fundamental difference for them. These people’s answer was a bit surprising to us because some of them do not even want to go to appeal. They go there, so to speak, transgressing through themselves.
Among them are people who went to the Supreme Court, but did not score the required number of points to get into thirty winners. Some of them failed to pass the test, someone did not score based on other criteria, including integrity and professional ethics.
- How in general can they continue to work?
- Such a conclusion was made within the framework of the relevant competition and it could not itself affect the career movement of a judge. We have emphasized this.
- How many judges have already changed their posts?
- As to the former judges of the High Commercial Court, the issue is mostly resolved. They have already been distributed and we have provided our recommendations. The High Council of Justice will step up after.
The situation is almost the same with regard to judges of the High Administrative Court. For the majority, the question of their transfer has been resolved. Although there are judges who have submitted applications asking for a postponement of the transfer. The reasons are different. The question is difficult. These include a state of health, age. Someone cannot move, someone has asked to stay where it is more convenient, and as a rule, it is in Kyiv. But in Kyiv, there is the question of the availability of vacancies. At the same time, in other regions, there is a high need for specialists of this level. So we make the transfer to where there is an urgent need. There are such courts, where there are currently 40 vacancies.
for some reason, JUDGES ARE ESPECIALLY AFRAID OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING
- Qualification evaluation of judges is ongoing. Many of those with whom I communicate are offended at a few moments in this process. Some say: “I've been working for many years, and I have only a small percentage of canceled decisions. Doesn’t this confirm my level of qualification?” Second, is a huge workload, which is aggravated by the fact that people who sometimes work until midnight, have to spend the nights to prepare for tests. And the third point that worries everyone is the salary increase. It turns out that the process of qualification evaluation is a time-consuming process. And wages are increased only for those who have already passed it.
- In your opinion, is this evaluation is worthy of so much effort, and to what extent is it justified?
- We were in a situation in which, in my opinion, we could not do without a procedure of the qualification evaluation that we are currently conducting. Because everyone believed that once a person has been working as a judge for a certain number of years, he or she knows everything, doing a perfect job. But something went wrong if the society started demanding the release of all the judiciary, in order to clear the judicial system. Up to zero! And only then to select new ones.
I was a little surprised when this argument was supported by those who in general understood the process of training a judge. How one can say that? To release, and to do what at this period? It takes time to prepare the judge. On April 3, 2017, the HQCJ announced the selection of local courts judges. It’s been a year, and only a part of them are now undergoing the training. The rest have gone through certain stages and are waiting for their turn. And the moment they begin to work as judges will not come too soon. Therefore, it was impossible to dismiss everyone and recruit new people.
The Competition to the Supreme Court is a real result of a large-scale judicial reform and a large contribution of the Commission to its implementation. Commenced on October 20, 2017, the qualification evaluation of all judges of Ukraine continues. The examination of 5200 judges in terms of their compliance with the position, taking into account the possible consequences of inadequate preparation to the qualification evaluation, is a more difficult process for the Commission that the Supreme Court Competition, but it is quite possible for judges.
Equally important and competitive is the selection of judges for 21 positions of judges of the High Specialized Court on Intellectual Property, which returns Ukraine to the civilized protection of intellectual property rights.
- And why did the evaluation process start so late? You could have done it before, and it would probably have come to an end. What were you waiting for?
- If you recall, we have already conducted an initial qualification evaluation. This was in accordance with the Law, adopted in 2015. It was easier than the one we are doing today. In particular, there was no psychological testing, nor did it foresee the release of judges, as it is now. The current evaluation became possible only with the entry into force of the Law on Judiciary and the Status of Judges in June 2016, but as you know, it came into force at the end of September, and we immediately started from the renewal of the highest instance.
And back in 2015, when we were thinking about the judges who should be the first to undergo the evaluation, nobody wanted. Everyone said: we do not need it. Then a decision was taken to start with the appeal courts judges. And when they passed the evaluation, they began to receive a new, higher salary. Undoubtedly, it insults those who are still waiting for their turn. Everyone wants the salary increase. And they will have it, as soon as they will pass the qualification evaluation.
It is clear that this is the stress for people. Especially, judges for some reason are afraid of psychological tests. Though there’s nothing to be afraid of. These tests are constructed so that you need to respond quickly without thinking because there is no predefined answer to these questions. There may be one and the same questions, but they are formulated differently. Therefore, there may be different answers. When a person undergoing a test is trying to come up with the right answers, it is accordingly evaluated, and the psychologists finally conclude that this test is not valid. Then the level of competencies is estimated on the results of an interview with the psychologist and the general conclusion on the results of the tests is passed to the Commission.
- Do Psychological tests affect the judge’s evaluation?
- The total number of points is affected by the whole picture. It is an assessment of professional activity, workload, and quality of work. Psychological testing is not the main and decisive part, but its results impact the overall assessment of the judge.
I also talk to judges, and I know that preparing for tests is difficult. Especially, if a person stays at work late. And it’s even harder to wait for results. Let me tell you how the process takes place. The first two hours, judges work with a law test and then write a written assignment. At the end of the working day, they leave home, waiting long for the result. After all, if by the end of the day tests the computer gives results, then the practical work is checked by the members of the Commission, and this takes time. The schedule of work in the Commission is quite tense.
We have almost daily meetings, given the interviews with judges. Only Thursday is free, and on that day everyone is checking practical assignments. Many people are at work at 7 am. Oh, if you ever looked at us in the morning! But why do you need?
- What are the results of the interviews?
- By the way, not always high. Although the majority are still positive. But there is a misunderstanding, and the nerves and despair as well. It varies.
- What about scandals? Do they often happen?
- No, not at all. Well, in any case, we, as the Commission’s members, do not notice this. Although secretariat staff who support the organization of this whole process complain that sometimes individual judges do not behave politely.
- Can the HQCJ members affect the results of the practical task that they were checking, when the points for the practical assignment are being given? Would you, for example, if someone from your acquaintances asks for a little correction?
- At this stage, judges have to produce the court decision of the relevant instance and the relevant specialization. A criminal, a civil. A verdict, a ruling, a decision. The tasks were developed by specialists on the basis of already considered cases. That means that practical tasks are not developed artificially.
It’s impossible for the HQCJ members to influence or to increase someone’s assessment, first of all, because the work is encoded, which means that it’s unknown who is the author of the practical task. Secondly, this simply cannot happen. Although sometimes I would like to ask some of the authors: “What have you written here?”
- What do you think about the Public Integrity Council who has ceased to cooperate with the Commission?
- This is a painful topic, and I would not want to talk about it.
- But this is very important, and one should talk about it for the sake of public confidence in those who are undergoing the evaluation. So the Commission is no longer receiving the PIC Opinions? Can you handle the procedure without them?
- Formally, we can. But one has to understand, in the end, that it is the duty of PIC members to give their opinions. They are called upon to assist the Commission in solving all these issues. The Public Integrity Council provided us with a part of the opinions. In the beginning. We provided them with our feedback, and there was a question about the form in which they were submitted. We informed about that and postponed all the cases on which such opinions were made. We announced a break in these cases, and asked the PIC, in each case, and on the camera, to correct them, so that these opinions become documents, as required by the rules of the Commission, and then we will continue to work with them. But this has not happened yet, and we are waiting. But I would like to say that the majority of the facts, highlighted in the opinion, are still being verified by the Commission. Because they are taken from open sources or from a judicial dossier. We also find information about each judge, examine both declarations and social networks, and we study what people say about them.
Those opinions that the PIC has not transferred to the Commission, but simply placed at its website, are still being examined by us. And have asked the judges to do the same. To open the PIC conclusion, and study its content. And if considered necessary, to give an explanation to the PIC. And to the HQCJ as well, especially on the issues raised by the PIC. Now, the PIC has stopped providing their opinions event at their website.
- And the break, took in cases, where there are opinions, how long will it last?
- So far I personally cannot answer this question. It will be decided by the Commission as a collegiate body. But I sincerely hope for the responsible cooperation.
- Who has the best results: young judges or those who have many years of experience?
- It is difficult for me to analyze this because we do not see who and how it is responding. And here I would repeat once again that all the works are coded. But I was amazed by one of the interviews. Among the judges working in the east, there is a woman who is becoming 65 years old in a few months, but she is undergoing a qualification evaluation and passed the exam successfully. At the interview, we were interested in what made her risk so much, given that she could have easily retired? She replied that she could have refused, but everyone was preparing, uniting efforts, sharing all the questions and discussing them. How could I be outside this process? This is my team. And I came to pass the evaluation with everyone. And she passed everything, she managed it successfully to easily go for the retirement.
THERE ARE RICH AND POOR JUDGES, NOTWITHSTANDING THE JURISDICTION
- What has impressed you personally in the judicial dossiers?
- I do understand that you would like to hear about elite cars, expensive mansions, and so on. But most of the colleagues, especially women who are raising their children, have cars from 1996-1998. They do not have huge wealth, no trips abroad. In the dossier, there is an information from which you can see (you probably know) who and where did go, crossing the border.
There were not so many flights actually. Those who live and work in the western regions of the country say that they go for the food and pharmacy, as well as to have a rest abroad. And you may track it by hours, and even minutes from the dossier. There are also those that have not been flying anywhere. Never. Especially women who live by themselves.
One can meet owners of mansions and luxury cars among judges. So the task of society and the HQC, in particular, is to calculate them, and not to put stamps on all of them.
By the way, many judges have loans. Different kinds of loan, including cars, housing. Some of them are small. And the question arises, but how could it be done without it? And we have asked one judge: “15 thousand – what is this loan about?” She immediately got embarrassed, and then says: “But I needed to cure my teeth, put up implants, and I was forced to take a loan.” Apparently, judges should be paid well, so they do not think how to cure teeth or how to go for a vacation in Turkey or Egypt.
- When the examination of the judges’ lifestyle started, the opinion prevailing in the society that the richest judges were the ones working in the commercial courts, had been confirmed. You used to work in the Commercial Court. In what district of the city do you have an apartment?
- It is difficult to answer such a question without prior target-oriented analysis. I did not study this issue. There are wealthy judges, there are poor, regardless of jurisdiction.
I live in Troieshchyna, two-room apartment. I have not yet managed to have a better one... I’ve been using the car of 2004 release. I love her, we are getting older together, and I am comfortable with that. The cars owned by the family were not bought new. So far, no one has bought a car from the salon, neither me nor sons.
- Who are they? Also, lawyers?
- Yes, but only one is practicing, he is a lawyer, and the other is not. The elder worked as a judge for 12 years. In 2013, he voluntarily resigned. The change of generations took place, including in the judiciary system. The younger ones came, having a slightly different attitude to work.
- More frivolous or what?
- As to judges, the word “frivolous” is probably wrong. And I am afraid to somehow generalize and place everyone into a category that is not very conscientious about their work. During the interviews that we are currently conducting at HQCJ, we are indignant at those who have many canceled decisions. Because cancellation, although it is provided by law, is a lack of work. I remember all my cases, the decisions of which were canceled during the entire period of my work. There were only a few of such canceled decisions. And the majority of judges worked like that in those times.
And now we are faced with the fact that some judges have a lot of cancellations. And the attitude of judges to this is very simple. They say that there are not the only ones to have cancellations. Moreover, there is a higher instance that will sort it out. This is the attitude. And it hurts to me that judges are not bothered about the authority of the judicial system because of the quality of their work. If to use figures, now one judge sometimes has 15% cancellation, and this is very much.
- And did you have such decisions, about which you then regretted?
- No, I hadn’t. Maybe because I was dealing with the civil cases. Since 1993, I have been in the appeal (then – regional court), since 2007, in the Supreme Court. And this is the case when you are dealing with the decisions of the lower instances, and you have to study everything and declare was it right or not. This means that I, already being a judge of a commercial court, did not take initial decisions that could somehow be decisive for business.
Perhaps I could recall something like that, but it’s necessary to spend some time. However, I do not have such a possibility right now, nor is there a way to look at those decisions. But the answer to such a question can always be given by the judges dealing with the criminal cases. I was considering criminal cases from 1984 to 1993. There were criminal cases of different complexity. Being at the first instance, I had to deal with a case about the murder, but that was a murder without aggravating circumstances, and the article did not provide for the death penalty. The greatest punishment was 15 years. We called them ‘domestic murders’, which happened on the ground of some kind of hostile relationship.
My approach to work was always the following: if it is written in the law that there is a presumption of innocence, then until I understand everything and write that the accused is guilty, he is on the same page as everyone else. In the process of considering the case, I see my purely human task to prove to the guilty that he is going to prison for these 8 years not because the judge was bad or the judge wanted so, but because he was guilty. Because he committed the crime.
I remember one case when a man was convicted of rape. And then I was told that he wrote that his mother died during this period when he was convicted and that Zaritska was to be blamed because she did not realize that it was not rape but voluntary relations.
- When you worked, there was still a death penalty. Did you have such cases?
- The death penalty was assigned as the punishment for particularly serious crimes (such as murder with aggravating circumstances). Such cases were to be considered by regional courts. And when in 1993 I was elected as a judge of the regional court, I agreed to a proposal to work in a civil panel. As for criminal cases, during the work in the district court, I had to deal with rather complicated cases. Judges are aware of how challenging it is. Even resisting this, the judge, during the case, is experiencing certain events, allowing to everything to go through the soul. There is no such thing: I came in the morning, and in the evening I took the verdict. No, the case is under consideration for a long time, the circumstances are clarified in detail, interruptions for additional inspections are announced, other cases are considered. The person is taken to an investigative isolator, and then delivered again, and you work with him again. And then the verdict. The one who is sitting on the dock has only one position of defending himself. On the other hand, people with misfortune, with grief, they have their own position to punish the offender as much as possible. And the judge has to accept all of this, to understand and make a verdict, legal and fair. It was difficult, but I think that I succeeded.
- You were a photographer, so how did this happen that you had become a judge?
- Yes, my first education and work were related to photography. I really liked it. For 10 years, I had been professionally engaged in photography. I received education in this profession at the Kyiv Polygraphic School № 6 and at the Republican Technological College at the specialization “Phototechnics”.
My older brother got a higher legal education in 1965 and worked as a prosecutor. I wanted to follow his example and to go first to the law school, but he made me change my mind. He told me that I could not even imagine how it is difficult to work in this system for a woman who has a family. Therefore, apparently, I began to do what I liked. But fate, as you see, decided differently, and I became a lawyer.
- You are not the only creative personality in the family, as your granddaughter is singing?
- Yes, Sasha. And I really appreciate it. She has proven to everyone that she’s not a lawyer by her nature.
- And she was a lawyer?
- Studied at the Law Academy....
- I’ve heard her songs, and she sings very well. She writes songs herself?
- No. The songs and clips are produced by professionals who understand this.
Her first album has been recently presented. Professionally, she has been singing a little more than a year.
- And what made Oleksandra decide to go to the “X factor”?
- She studied at the Faculty of Law. She said that she would not like to be a lawyer, that this is not interesting for her. And her father hoped that she would help him in his law practice. Because we all believe that our work is the most interesting. But she sang, participated in the castings. Somewhere she succeeded, somewhere – not. She managed to be accepted for the “X factor” from the third time.
And she succeeded at one of the castings, which was conducted by the producer company “Mama-musical”. And now she has a contract with this company.
- By the way, do you have the “Facebook”?
- No, I don’t have an account. Sometimes, I can go quickly through it.
- What are you following?
- Only for my granddaughter’s KAZKA band, because it is very important to me. And I have to know how she is progressing, what she wears, what’s her makeup.
- You give her some advice?
- I wish she would accept them! But I’m not offended since the youth have their own lives.
- And how many grandchildren do you have?
- Five. And all of them are girls. Three students, one schoolgirl, Oleksandra.
- Do you like her songs?
- I have a favorite one. I tell her: “Sasha, the song “I was crying” is the best one, both in terms of the music and words”.
- How do you relieve stress with such a crazy schedule of work?
- At such an age, you sometimes think about what would you like to do in order to relieve stress, if it does not take time for you. Time in the understanding of life. And you think, who knows how much you have left to deal with this or that. Here is an example. I really love to do puzzles. Among them, there is one consisting of
24 thousand pieces. They can neither be laid nor decomposed nor can they be hoisted. But I would like to accomplish it!
I have been making up for 4 years. Still not completed. And when I want, as you say, a little relaxation, I throw a few pillows on the floor and make the puzzles. There is no more effective way of getting rid of stress for me. You would ask me why not reading? I’m worried about what I read. If I read some psychological literature, then I apply it to myself, because there must be some purpose in it. I still love the movie. Sometimes I’m watching a series, just to watch the play of actors.
- Judicial reform is similar to the picture of puzzles you’ve mentioned. Years are coming, but it does not make up in a good picture…
- I’m convinced that we will make it up. I think that judges were sleeping. Everyone was doing his or her own job, without being interested in what others can say. Until something has started ...
- Did they wake up?
- I think so. Even the fact that they had to study these tests is already awakening. They will begin to respect themselves more after they have done everything. Each of them will come out and say: I did it. And this is good. And they will be better paid. Most importantly, it will affect the quality of their work. And what we are doing now as well.
Tetyana Bodnya, Nataliia Sharomova
CENSOR.NET – 22.06.2018
July 31, 2018
